“These Are the Musical Stylings Of…”: In conversation with the Lerato Orchestral Collective*
It comes as no surprise that jazz has become one of the pillars of South African music, from swing bars and shebeens in 1950s Sophiatown to international stages of the 21st century, this genre is engraved within the fabric of our culture.
Jazz never died, it evolved, and the genuine awe I experience in being able to bear witness as talented rising young artists breathe a new life into the genre now, is a feeling I can only imagine our parents and grandparents felt when they heard the likes of Hugh Masekela, Abdullah Ibrahim, Judith Sephuma, or Andile Yenana for the very first time.
The Lerato Orchestral Collective* embody this new jazz age. (Currently) made up of six members, this ragtag group of musicians from different artistic backgrounds and lived experiences came together to release their debut album, LERATO LA RONA* in August of 2025.
The eight tracks feel like a sonic journey through the past, present, and what might be the future of South African jazz. The opening track aptly titled LERATO, is the perfect introduction to their sound. A groovy, drum-heavy, jovial track with a nostalgic, uniquely South African sound to absolutely get you up on your feet.
But not too long into the album, you realise that this is more than just a good sound, there’s a message here. Track 2, UMHLABA, is when the group’s true intentions with this record shine through, as they begin to infer lyricism that talks about the plight of the black individual (the term ‘black’ functioning here as an umbrella term for marginalised people of colour) and what they have suffered and continue to suffer at the hands of abelungu (white people).
This socio-political messaging threads through the entire album all the way into the final (and also my favourite) track titled SWIM. But the messaging is not preachy, and they are by no means begging you to listen. It feels more as though they are saying “keep dancing, but take a moment to hear what we have to say”.
Though LERATO LA RONA* does lean heavily in the jazz direction, it certainly cannot be bound to just this one genre. The penultimate track titled 7/5, another favourite of mine, takes a refreshing Afro-rock approach and really shows off lead singer, Lesedi Sibiya’s subtle vocal versatility.
His voice flows seamlessly from smooth, soft vocals to the trademark nasally singing common amongst alt-rock lead singers of the 2000s, to rock ‘n roll scream-singing and back.
The way he manipulates pitch in the ad-libs creates what feel like musical ‘background characters’, giving a real fullness to the track.
But everyone more than holds their weight to create a beautiful collaboration. These are the musical stylings of the Lerato Orchestral Collective*: Lesedi Sibiya (lead vocals, harmonica), Kayleb Sass (guitar), BikoMaq (drums), Sile Kubheka (bass), Sihle Ribisi (lead guitar), and Mike Marango (videographer), with the honourable mention of former member and major contributor to this striking debut, John Johannesburg (aka Jozi).
I had the honour of speaking to half of the group; Mike, Kayleb and Lesedi, and not long after meeting for the very first time we were talking at length about psychedelics, politics, music as cultural resistance, movies, pets, and everything in between.
We talked so much that not everything could make it into the final interview cut and we tended to go off on many tangents, but our lengthy conversation had me leaving an even bigger fan, and feeling welcomed in like a friend. We covered a lot, but every seemingly inconsequential detail proves absolutely essential to understanding the fabric of the band and what these young artists stand for. This is the Lerato Orchestral Collective*.
Interview
Transcript:
Lerato: You guys can just talk. Again, it's just a conversation. You don't have to give diplomatic answers.
So, you guys can just introduce yourselves, what you do and also how you joined the collective just to start. If you can go one by one.
Kayleb: Well, Sedi (Lesedi) might as well go first.
Sedi: Yeah, my name’s Sed, Lesedi or Sedi, whatever’s comfortable to your tongue. I am a singer in the band; lead vocalist, play harmonica.
Lerato: So you’re the harmonica in SWIM?
Sedi: Yeah. I'm the harmonica in SWIM.
Lerato: I was gonna ask.
Sedi: Yeah, no, that's me. And, yeah, I suppose I'm the guy that kinda found these guys on the internet. Now they're here with me, and it's so cool.
Lerato: What made you think, “oh, I need to get this particular group of people and we need to do something”?
Sedi: It wasn't even that it was particular. I just literally randomly woke up one morning and well, this person (Sedi did not want to name) just kept asking me, like, “hey, when are you going to perform?” and I was like, “yeah, soon soon, I just want to get a band.”
I’d been saying that for like two years at that point. So then I woke up, and I realised, this is getting to a point where I’m starting to look like a liar. So, I then go on Instagram, and I was like, “hey, I need a drummer, bassist, guitarist, and a flautist.” Didn't get the flautist, of course.
But, yeah, it wasn't an easy thing because no one was really responding with the responses I needed. So anyways, it got to a point where I got referred to some people. Biko then texted me out of nowhere on WhatsApp and was like, “I saw your message and this is what I can do…I can do this, I play drums.” And I'm like, “cool, dude, pull up. I'm going to set up a studio session.”
And then Sile was referred to me by a friend. I hit her up, I sent her my album. I'm like, “dude, I make music, do you wanna be in my band?” She's like, "Yeah!" Stoked. And then Kayleb's one was more organic because it was at a point where I was kind of giving up because I couldn't find a guitarist and it kind of felt like the dream was dying. And then we had a studio session with a mutual friend of ours, Yabo, and they gave the platform for us to sort of collaborate, and [upon finding out that Sedi was starting a band] Kayleb was like, “you know, I play a little bit of guitar.”
Kayleb: I'll never forget what I said that day because he always says the same thing. Like, “I play a little guitar.” He always says that.
Sedi: And I was like, “dude, I don't care how little you know. I need a guitarist.” I know a little bit of keyboard so we’ll learn together. It was initially supposed to be my Breakfast Boy thing.
Lerato: So they were going to be your band, but for your solo work?
Sedi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then we jammed one song, and then I was like, “guys, do you want to, like, do this thing? Like, just keep carving and carving” and they were all like, “yeah, cool.”
Lerato: What made you want to join Kayleb?
Kayleb: Um, the thing is for me, I've been making music for a while by myself, and with other people like Yabo. But also, I wanted to become better. I mean, I've always wanted to be in a band and try that whole thing out. But I also just wanted to get better at making music. And I can't deny that a lot of my music journey has kind of just [been] self-serving in a way, like I'll join your band if I think that people in the band are better than me and then I can learn from them. And that's how I felt, you know?
Like, I can do what I want to do, bring my kind of flavour in here and then there's also great musicians around me. People who know what they're doing, people who understand this language that we're all speaking. And in a way, it became for me a thing that's less isolating. Music can be— all art forms, it can be very isolating because it's all about your vision and what you want, and you know that you're the only one who can execute that. Until it's not your vision, and it's just a vision, and there's multiple components to it, and yeah, I mean, I think just a general enthusiasm to make music is what led me to join the band and then kind of what led me to stay is just, everything after that.
Like how it just became so much more than a bunch of people playing music, we'd just become humans in front of each other and that encouraged me also to explore my creativity more. 'Cause I won’t lie, in this band, it can get intense, like, in the best ways. Emotionally, we'll have arguments, and then we'll have great high peaks and crash outs and then moments where you're not satisfied with the way I'm doing my thing or I'm not satisfied with the way you're doing your thing. And I think the beauty came in the fact that it's like, yeah, that's gonna happen. But are we all in or like, are we in? And we were in. So, also that reinforced for me [that] these guys are serious. Like, these guys are down. I know I'm down. And if I can see that they're down, then it's also my responsibility to keep feeding that by showing up, and now I've been doing this for like two years.
Lerato: Yeah, I think that's the cool thing about having collectives or groups like this, is that you have people that are also pushing you as well because I think when you're doing things alone, you kind of work on your own timeline and you could kind of be a little bit more lax about your goals. But, if you know that there are other people who are also depending on you executing, then I think also the productivity kind of starts to show.
Kayleb: Yes. 100%. 100%
Lerato: And then, Mike?
Mike: Oh me, I basically was just a roadie. (all laugh)...So basically, I would attend all the rehearsal sessions with Kayleb, because I knew Kayleb beforehand. [we used to go to the same Varsity] and we’d always kick it together, and Kay [would tell me he was going to rehearsal and I came with].
And mostly I would always attend rehearsal sessions. But then there was a moment where they were recording the album and that was an opportunity for me to step up and actually do something that I was thinking of doing, documenting each and every gracious moment that you guys were partaking [in].
Kayleb: I just wanna add to that. It's also, you know, Mike, he became so integrated in the band before we even accepted him as a member of the band, in the sense that there'd be rehearsals where I come there by myself. And, we’ll, you know, get into things and then I'd just be like, “where's Mike?” You know?
And it's like, even beyond just doing an actual physical thing, it just really became a part of that culture as well to have him there and to see his face and, you know, have him be a part of this thing, it felt weird when it was just the five of us. Or even at an earlier time, when it was just the four of us. Like, it didn't feel weird that it was us, but it was more like, this was not the full picture.
Mike: And at the time I actually had the equipment to do all of that. I had a DSLR camera. I had things that I can [use] to just, like, do all that. And the opportunity presented itself and I took it.
Sedi: [...] And then I pulled Kayleb to the side. I'm like “Yo, dude, what do you think about Mikey being in the band?” and he’s like “yeah dude, that’d be fire.” So, we actually said, “what do you think about Mikey getting a tat?” And that's another way you get into the band. That solidifies it.
Lerato: A tat?
Kayleb: That’s like the only way [to get into the band]. Yeah, we all have.
Lerato: Matching [tattoos]? Oh my.
Kayleb: Yeah.
Lerato: [to Mike] Where's yours?
Kayleb: That's the thing, what I was going to say. There's also an induction process. Like even with Sihle, the lead guitarist in the band, he also kind of got into the band in a similar way as Mikey and it was a long process for him to get to the point where he had the tat. So he does have the tat now.
So when Sed says something like, “yo, should Mikey get a tat?” It's beyond asking, “should he be in the band?” It's like, “are you ready to share this with this guy? Like, forever?” It's also kind of another thing that this, the physical aspect of the band, you know, having a tattoo of it on your shoulder every day, it kind of shows or it kind of speaks to each member to say that, “hey, man, this is not a joke, you know, this is not a little play play” or the members are also not interchangeable. Whoever the band is, that's the band.
So it's just one of those things where it's kind of a sacred place, you know? You can't just come and go as you please. You know, like, members who have left have never returned and members who stayed are still here today.
So, the tat also symbolises that the message is aligned with that person. The music's aligned with that person. That’s why there’s people like Mikey, who’s not playing an instrument or anything, but the person that Mike is, is like, so beautiful and so humanous. Yeah, it's like he's so raw. He's so raw. And obviously he has talent in videography and stuff. You say, okay, you're good at this but also beyond you being good at this, you're good, you're a good person.
Lerato: Yeah, that's such an overlooked part of a collective coming together. Energy is such a big thing. Like, as you said, regardless of talent, just how you guys work together, how you guys work through your disagreements, how you are able to respect one another when you guys disagree.
So, speaking then along those lines of energy, I mean, ‘Lerato’ is also a word that holds a lot of weight. We know it means love, but why did you guys choose that? How do you feel like you guys embody that word as a collective?
Sedi: The name didn't come as soon as I started it. I had marinated on it, especially because the band wasn't obviously intended to be like an entity. So upon us deciding when to be a band, I kept looking at, you know, Sile, Biko and Jozi (John Johannesburg, a former band member) at the time. I was like, “hmm, if you had to see this group of people together, what permeates? Like, what is the thing that, if you say that name, it's right on the money, right?”
Sedi: So it stumped me for a bit. So a friend of mine, we actually had this idea of doing a duo thing called Left of Centre. And when I said that, that was the first name I thought of. I was like, “let's be Left of Centre” which kind of is a betrayal to the homie (he jokes).
So then Jozi, that whole first session was just like, “yeah, you know, I’m with the L.O.C* You know, I’m with the L.O.C.*" And I was like, "Oh, that name…It feels like something that you want to be a part of, but you can't really be a part of.”
Kayleb: And this guy, dude, when he gets like, niche fucking interests, he'll be fucking raving about that for weeks.
Sedi: Yeah, so then I told the friend “bruh, I kind of gave my band the name, Left of Centre” and he was like, “ah, dude. That was supposed to be our thing.” Well, you're right, it was supposed to be our thing. But the songs we were also coming up with in that session kind of also made me realise that that's not the name that represents the message.
So then Jozi, yho, I love that guy so much. He's the one that kinda gave me so much insight on local bands like South African bands that really carry the weight that we were sort of trying to channel, which was at a very adolescent stage. And then he's like, “eh bra, have you heard of BCUC?” I was like, “nah." “Morena Leraba?” I’m like, “no”. “The Brother Moves On?” “No.” “What? Who are you listening to?” So then he's like, "Bra, listen to BCUC tonight.”
I dropped him off after that first session. Go home, smoke a joint. And I was like, "okay, lemme listen to what this guy is talking about, BCUC.” Literally, the energy of that, I was like, "we're kind of doing this thing, you know? Kind of.”
Sedi: And then I saw what BCUC stands for, Bantu [Continued] Uhuru Consciousness. I was like, “oh, I like, I like that. That acronym.” So then, the day before we were supposed to have the second session, I was like, “guys, I have an idea. What do you guys think of Lerato Orchestral Collective?” And don't ask me where those three names came from. Like, it just really honestly just came to me.
Sedi: Okay, well, the orchestral part was because of Unknown Mortal Orchestra. Like, I love that band so much.
Mike: That's crazy. That's where you derived it from?
Sedi: The adding the orchestral in it came from Unknown Mortal Orchestra. So I was like, “man, I like that. They're not even an orchestra” you know? So I was like, well, then we canalso be an orchestral. So then I was like, “and we're a collective.” So then the reason I settled on Lerato is because—
Lerato: (joking) Of me, of course.
Sedi: (joking) Yeah, you. Like this whole time. It was just— I had to give an ode to you.
Lerato: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sedi: (serious) I thought to myself, you know, as a kid, I had this insatiable obsession with being the best person that I can be. I look at people that I'm like, “okay, whatever those people are doing or whatever the general consensus is on something, I want to do something that pushes through that.” Like, for instance, very sensitive example is, you know, like “all men are the same.” It's like, okay, “how can I not be the same?”
And then I realised that it's through love, and I was like, “okay, but what is love?” And then I was like, “oh, I got it, it's the unconditional notion that whatever is transpiring in any sort of situation, that you have grace for it, that you are honest about it, you have an understanding that you can approach diplomatically. And also at the core of it, its community.” So, then I just wanted this band to represent that. I was like, “then, let's be love, man.” Just the full geeked out, gooped out level of the word.
And, you know, initially it was like, all types of love, like romantic love, which sometimes became more about that when we were jamming sounds, like I'd come up with lyrics and I'd speak to someone. But then, me and Jozi just sat together. He was at my house and we smoked a bunch of weed, and I was telling him, “eish bra, I don't know, about singing about romance anymore. I have a whole solo project dedicated to that, so let's do something different”. And then we just came up with this whole thing of, let's speak about humanity.
Then SWIM changed from being a love song to being about humanity and our ancestors and how they cried and how they died because of what was taken from them and how “bana ba rona batsha”. The children are dying, the children are burning now, us, we’re burning, we're burning from those remnants. So and then came this whole vast message from there.
Lerato: You answered like five of my questions in that response.
Sedi: Okay, good, good, good.
Lerato: But that's really interesting that you said that because I did notice a lot of the messaging. Obviously the sound is very much like, “get up on your feet.” But there's also sociopolitical messaging that you infer as well within, and I thought of SWIM and UMHLABA as well, as examples. And I found that interesting because I was thinking about how in Hey Ya! Andre 3000 says “y’all don’t want to hear me, you just want to dance.” And that kind of merging of something that makes you want to move and then having some sort of bigger message within that.
So, I mean, you kind of answered it, but if you could give more insight into just the process of putting that together, like “this is the sound, but you're going to hear what we have to say.” And how important it was to actually infer that type of messaging into your music.
Sedi: You know, it's crazy. UNGANGBIZI is actually the song where we got…a certain inkling of what type of sound we want to have and how we want to present that sound. Because it also came just sparsely, literally, as soon as we decided we want to be a band, Sile just literally played that bassline out of nowhere. And then, like, it was a whole bunch of figuring it out for, like, 25 minutes of me just singing “unganbizi bo”, but at the time it was like, “o skang pitsa mo” but then…I just interchanged and then I just sort of kept on with ”ungangbizi”.
And I think the messaging behind that song was, I think I wanted the message to start from, like, “don't call me if you're oppressive. Don't call me to your lies. Don't call me if you’re gonna act cool. Don't call me if you're not trying to love people. Unganbizi, like, don't do that.”
So then that's where the love aspect sort of then translated into other forms of sound. And even UMHLABA was crazy. Sile came up with the bassline, naturally. And, we were going to use that to introduce ourselves, which is why in the beginning of the song it’s like, “these are the musical stylings of…” Yeah, it's because that was the only intention for that composition and the arrangement of that. It was like, we just want to introduce ourselves at the shows and then that stops and then this show begins.
So then..I was like, to the guys, that session, “Guys, do you not want to like, write more for the song? Can this be an actual song?” And then I stepped out for like two minutes. I think I was getting wine. I was drinking at the time. And then I came back and [Jozi is singing what became the UMHLABA chorus]. And then Biko and Jozi are like “hey dude, so listen, here are the lyrics” And they teach me the lyrics. And I'm like “whoo! Yho, this is serious.”
Lerato: In our country, music has always been a form of cultural resistance. So, it's very nice to see even now, still seeing that music is still a form of cultural resistance in some way, because I was listening to the album and I was like, “oh, it's fire.” And then I realised it's sort of subliminal until you sit down and you're like, “oh, shit, they're actually telling me this,” you know, like this is the actual messaging. So, yeah, I think, that was my favourite part of having the first listen, was just realising the direction that it was going to go, because I didn't know what to expect. And then kind of going into it and being like, “oh, okay, this is more than just get up and dance, this is something else.”
And you were talking about sort of the cultural aspect of it. It's very much like a cultural melting pot. I imagine you guys are all from different backgrounds, all [have] different solo careers and you kind of came together to create this sound, using different languages as well in the album. So was that very intentional on your part or did that just come naturally?
Sedi: Look. No. I won't lie to you, I didn't think of that when I initially started it. It became an influence of, like, listening to Jozi and I know I’ve been name dropping him in this entire thing. But it's just because when I speak about the genesis of the band and also my mental space, when we were like starting, it's like, I realised how far removed I actually was from just so much of my country's contributions to this beautiful art form, you know what I'm saying?
Obviously, I knew the classics like…you know, Miriam, Letta Mbulu…Lebo Mathosa, Brenda Fassie…but [not] the ones that are still like now, today, you know? And then listening to that, how they're telling those stories. Damn, dude, I was like, we have to do more…So, it is definitely influenced by bands like The Brother Moves On, and BCUC.
I wouldn't say iPhupo L’ka Biko per se, but I mean, their messaging is also kind of the same. And I actually— when I went to their live set at the Forge two years ago, I was like “see that? See how they’re doing that?” Like the whole visceral interpretation of anger and sadness. That is what I want us to sort of be better than or even find our own way of doing that.
Kayleb: Yeah, just to add on to that, 'cause you even brought up that Andre thing…the whole messaging of that song is, you know, marriage is this idea of, you know, you’re my love forever and ever, and we call it a day. But the actual reality of life is that, you know, nothing lasts forever. And what's interesting about that song is like this whole mockery of marriage and stuff. But the way it sits in culture, it doesn't fulfil the purpose of what it's talking about. So the messaging and the actual outcome are like two different things, you know?
And when I think about that in a more design way. That's like, some things got lost along the way, you know? They're playing [‘Here Comes the Bride’] mockingly at the end of the song, and it's just a song. But he's actually saying, "...the day by day ruler can’t be too long,” and all these things. It's like he's rapping it, and it's very poppy, but it's going over. So I feel like also with us, like, the nice thing is that, especially in the live setting, you know, because even the experience that you described of like hearing the music and enjoying it and then you're double taking on the message, the live experience is like the opposite.
[In] the live experiences, the message is the thing, the whole show. No people, no egos, just like, listen to what this guy's saying, bro. He's crying in front of your face. He's like writhing on the ground…And the people next to you in the crowd are feeling things, and you're feeling it and so, that's also kind of a thing where it's like, I feel like we're fortunate that we spend so much time as individuals marinating in “what is this?” you know?
And for a lot of us on the inside, we know that we're just channelling something greater than us. It's not about the faces, it's not about us. It's not about talent. It's really beyond. And I think, hopefully, that you can dance to the song. Celebrating is not only exclusive to positivity. You know, like when someone passes away, you celebrate their life. And so dance, you know, go crazy, but cry. You know what I'm saying? Like, feel it out. You know that we're not talking about the good old days. We're talking about the old days of this country and how it's still prevailing today.
And we're in a fortunate position because the things that we're doing, it really doesn't matter how good the music is. Like, it's good, you know? It's great. But, there's more important things than making songs, you know? There's moving people, making people feel like they're seen or making people feel like it's actually cool to be here, you know?
So, yeah, I mean, I feel like a lot of people grew up consuming a lot of Western media, myself included. It's like, “it's not that cool to be brown” in the eyes of Western media…Based on those depictions of media— which is really super important to how you see yourself as a person.
You don't think that, “wow, man, actually, you know what? I deserve to be here. I deserve more than what I'm given, actually. I deserve so much greater than this.” So for me, with the white people it’s like “ay, bro, the least you can do is hear this.” And you as the person who was a part of that, can live in your guilt and know that I'm not saying let's divide further. I'm saying, “you cav’, and then we get together, and then we make a difference.”
Mike: Yeah. Damn bro, that was profound (all laugh).
Sedi: You know what? And that’s so real, you know? 'Cause I mean, I actually even revealed this to Kay two days ago. Superheroes for me, I really love that shit because of what it represents, you know? Like, the core aspect of being a hero. I want to be a superhero, but not because [of] the archetype of it, like, “I’m the god, you have to worship. And, you know, I'm the guy that’s flying in the air”.
No, it's that I will not even kill my enemy, because I think that is wrong. I want to defeat you, but I don't want to kill you. And I think if people really look deeper in those messagings, you can actually see that a superhero's thing is, “kill? Hai, hai, hai.” Then you’re an antihero.
Kayleb: That's not the way.
Sedi: It's not the way. So, the reason I'm even bringing the superhero thing up is because, Mbako (a friend of the band and an artist) even said this at the Not School* day (Not School* is a GUSHER initiative that brings together interesting, artistic people to host sessions on things they have unique insight into).
Kayleb: Yho, it was deep, that shit hit me.
Sedi: So [Mbako] was saying, a language like Tswana, because it wasn't written down, [as in] there wasn't actual documentation of it. Like it was just messaging and—
Lerato: Verbal.
Sedi: Yeah, verbal. Certain words got lost in the veil of all of that. And…there's no word for hero. Because we never had that. We never had anyone saying like, “hero.” You know, it's just always been “oppressed.” Dude, like, are you kidding me? I really resonate with what he's saying. And, I guess we're trying to be the “superheroes.”
Kayleb: I mean, just even going into what Mbako was bringing up, like, their whole class was about, you know, language— well, not language, more about sound, but a lot of it was about spoken words and how history gets passed along in this particular way. And written literature has been lost to time, either destroyed on purpose or maybe even a more systematic way, just kind of pushed off to the side for you to find on your own in a very niche way.
But ultimately, it comes back to something like this where the music, you cannot take it away, you cannot remove it, you cannot silence it. Even just the small impact that we've made so far, that will prevail enough. You know what I'm saying? Like, that lineage of passing it down from one person to the next, telling our kids, “you know, in my time, it was a more Westernised kind of society, but the scars of the past are not gone.”
Dude, it's on some tip of like, it was terrible back then, but now it's not the same kind of terrible. It's taken on a new form, it's taken on a new identity, and really, yeah, we're not going to be able to just swoop it away. I don't even know the answer, bro. Like, I don't even know what is the move that we need to make to correct those things. All I'm saying to people is, be aware, you know, whether you're a person of colour or not. Especially if you're not. Be aware of the implications, the ripple effect, the dominoes that fell after that first one was pushed. You can apologise for pushing the first one. But you can never apologise for [the ripple effect].
At the end of the day, the fact is that it comes from these people, they turn us against each other, they destroy us in a very systematic, intelligent way, and then they also restrict the knowledge that we have to find out about that, too. So it's also up to us. If you have the privilege of education, if you have the privilege of knowing, and if you have the privilege to like explore these topics, if you're in an environment where these conversations are allowed.
So I feel like when it comes to this band, it's an embodiment of also that, like, “yo, dude, like, there's a message.” And that message cutting through prevails [over] everything else. Like, yeah, bro, maybe we're not flipping John Coltrane or whatever, and we're not the greatest musicians of all time. And, you know, there's no flexing to it, but at the end of the day, the truth of our country is embodied in the people that we are, even if we didn't make this music. Even if we didn't say any of this, that reality exists every day. Within you, Mikey, and all of us, it's what we're living every day. Whether you want to talk about it or not, that's up to you. But with us, it's like, “okay, let's talk about it,” but also, let's go about it in such a way that the love is a tough kind of love, but it's also a vulnerable kind of love.
Sedi: Yeah. That's the best way to put it, actually. Like, even, because someone told me that they think L.O.C* is racist. This is what I was told. He was literally saying “jah, you know, some people think L.O.C* is racist because of how they come off for white people.” I'm like, “what? What?” Like, whoever that is, you're dumb. Yeah, you're dumb. And please, on the record. Like, you're dumb because, you can't say that when you have songs that are quite frankly, not even really about white people. It's about fighting against oppression. It's about fighting against oppression.
And then you're gonna come tell me that because I stood on the stage and called that out, I'm racist? I think that sort of thing also kind of drives the motivation to do it because clearly we're not being clear. We need to get those guitars and those drums and say it again.
Kayleb: Like, even for me, it's just a perspective of like, there's a lot of people who are racist but I don't think every racist person has [chosen] that way. Even with these white people, it's like, you could just be racist [out] of ignorance. You could be outwardly racist. You could be a person of colour and be racist to your own people. But at the end of the day, we know, even those white kids who grew up [indoctrinated] with that information, you too, did not choose that. So instead of me telling you, “you a p*es,” I'll tell you, “your father and your grandfathers and those ancestors of yours, the luxuries that you're enjoying is because of them. And you know what they did was wrong.”
Kayleb: Maybe you're also cognisant enough to take this message, feel the guilt, but not come out of the guilt with resentment, or not come out of the guilt with a deflection. But instead say, “this is what happened. Jah, I'm not going to be able to give away my mansion. But maybe there's something else I can do. Maybe I can raise my children to understand this better. Maybe those children can be the ones to make the change.”
Kayleb: Because I feel like, you know, us existing right now and doing what we're doing, we're not going to put that final thing in there to change society today. But we all understand that all of this is generational, right? So it starts right now, but the conclusion comes later. And all we can do is plant the seeds to say, “guys, no matter how long history prevails, no matter how long Western society dominates the world, this is where it all started.” Everything comes from here and it's up to us to sort of perpetuate this message as responsibly as you can.
Sedi: I mean, I could say all the things that Kay said. And I like to think I do on stage. I'm glad that I got better at it. Because in the beginning, God damn. I was just saying whatever. I even outright asked people who they voted for.
Mike: I remember that.
Sedi: I think after that I realised, I can't really just say anything. Just because I think that it's provocative. I also have to have care with what I'm saying. I had to remind myself, because sometimes I did lose myself in this message where it's like, “I'm angry, now I'm just angry. Like, I don't care about the love. Now there’s just no ‘Lerato’ in this set. Just the angry songs.”
Sedi: And then I realised that no, but the point is not to say that white people should leave this country or that we should have our land back the way some people suggest. I'm just saying…”you must recognise that you had placed oppression on us and all we're trying to do is say recognise that so that we can move forward in a communal aspect, in a way that is truly equal”
Like when we die…there's no black spirit, no white spirit, there’s just spirit. I look to the spirit…whatever spirit that person possesses is something that I want to connect to.
Lerato: What [Kayleb was] saying about how we're made to feel like it's over, we've gotten past it. I think it's even more dangerous because it's covert. At least during apartheid, it was obvious. This regime didn't want to see people of colour succeed. It was obvious, it was written in law. It was how they practised their daily life. We could see it.
Now it's quiet. And when it's quiet, it's more scary because now you feel like you don't have to do anything because you're not hearing about it. You're not seeing it like our parents and our grandparents were seeing it. And that's why I value things like your album, like music and getting to people through the arts as well. Because I do think— I mean, I'm a writer, but I also think writing is also a form of oppression because the West brought the English language here. I did African Feminist Studies in university and we talked about decolonisation all the time. And we had to write essays in standard English with proper referencing, about decolonisation.
Kayleb: Like literally Harvard referencing, Western style, everything.
Lerato: It didn't make any sense. Our ancestors, like you guys said, shared things, we shared stories, we shared music, everything was word of mouth. Even when you were saying people say that, “yeah, colonisation brought a lot of things,” we were living before colonisation.
Kayleb: It's not like we were dying of all these diseases. Like, there was natural remedies, there was a predetermined society, you know.
Lerato: The West brought a lot of the diseases that we have. We had natural remedies, as you said. We had ways of doing things and we wouldn't know that we needed these things if these things hadn't come here. It's very much a catch-22. If the West hadn't come here, we wouldn't know that we needed them. We wouldn't know that we needed technology. We wouldn't know that we needed Western medication, etc.
Kayleb: We wouldn't think that we needed it. And…I don't know if African society untainted by the West would be this flawless utopia, I doubt it. You know, we're still humans, right? Humans fundamentally have this thing of like, “what's mine is mine.”...But we've created a system where, it's either I'm getting up or you’re getting up. And what I'm getting is not enough for me to get up…And through that thought process…”Why would I try to help someone who's down, when I'm also down? I need that shit, too.” And it's like, it creates a lot of infighting between us, but when you kind of step back, you realise, oh, there's someone else pulling these strings, bro.
And it really takes empowering individuals, people who have a voice that's [unwavering] or people who have a voice that cuts through everyone else's voice, for them to be the one to say, "Guys no, man, no, I'm tired now. I'm tired." That shows that really at the heart of societal change, it's the individual, right? And so even with this band, we're individuals with a collective message. I mean, dude, how can we talk about this band without saying all of this, you know
Mike: Yeah, that’s the main ethos of the band. That’s what you guys stand for.
Kayleb: Like we have a collective message, but before we could even spread that message, that message had to penetrate through each of the individual members. You know, we had to find our own interpretation of that message. A consensus that we can agree on so that we can impact individuals.
So now, when it's on a bigger scale, the older generation, the ones that we can't influence as much, it's up to us to change this generation of people to believe as a black person, a brown person, or any person of colour, you are valuable to this place that you stay in. You have more potential than you ever could have imagined, like the human potential is untapped, and you have that power.
And then also the people, the oppressors or the spawn of their oppressors…at least to me, then it's your responsibility to do your part to mitigate your dominance over society. Allow people who don't have what you have to be seen as having as well.
Lerato: Oh, my gosh. I don't know how I’m gonna transcribe this, but this is great.
Sedi: I was thinking about that.
Lerato: (looking at notes) I want to see if there's anything worth asking here. You guys answered everything.
This is a fun one. Was there a song on this album that meant the most for you guys to work on?
Kayleb: Let Mikey start this one.
Mike: I mean, I didn't work on it…I won’t lie, the song that I found to be the most beautiful. I mean, yeah, the messaging is the biggest part of the whole album, that's the whole thing that is also a part of the big beauty of it. But from a musical standpoint, I won't even lie, UMHLABA is a really spiritual song. Like, from the getgo, and I always mentioned that bridge because there was a time when you guys were rehearsing. And I still have this memory in my brain of like, Jozi singing the bridge and how impactful that [felt].
Even though I didn't know what initially the lyrics were about at the time, it's all vernac, right? But it's all about the fact that you guys also [found] a way to spread a sense of spirit [and] energy into your music, passion. Even if somebody may not engage with the lyrics, like, that sense of energy and passion and love is shown within the music as well. That's why you have people coming to you guys, and even if they may not understand what you're saying…They will still come up to you and be like, “wow, that's a good song.” Because damn! That thing, you've nailed it sonically as well. And I feel like that's what will make the band go further, that passion.
Lerato: UMHLABA and BADIMO are two songs that you can feel. I think also music that has— I don't have the musical terminology but like when you have sounds, adlibs, you know, in the background, like those are songs that I feel the most because you feel it sensorially. You feel it everywhere. Yeah. So I definitely get what you're saying.
Lerato: Kayleb?
Kayleb: I mean, I would probably also say, BADIMO because [of] why we created it and the messaging, or even just the personal relationship that it kind of came from. But then also now in a more musical perspective, like, for me, that's such an epic song, you know? It's just so epic and larger than life, and for a lot of artists who make music, like those are kind of the places that you wish to go to. Like, when you reach a song that, like Mike said, beyond what is actually being said, you can somehow feel that this is more important than, you know, just some random thing. Even if you don't know what it's saying, you know that “I, for some reason, feel like I need to take this seriously.”
And it also, for me, I love BADIMO because all the bells and whistles and the theatrics of the song was justified. It's not like we're just doing this for just pure musical fulfilment. It's also like, “yho, now we got such a crazy message, we actually have to meet that quota” and the reason I love that song is because I feel like we did meet that quota. Like, that song is just, it's so good. If I wasn't in this band, I'd still appreciate it.
Kayleb: But yeah, anyway, Sed?
Sedi: Ah, UNGANGBIZI dude, without a doubt. I think it's just because I think in my life I've never really exercised boundaries. I've always just let things slide and always just accepted everything that people are and do because, like, I didn't want to make them feel bad or I didn't want to, maybe in a more honest way, not to lose that relationship…I think I just wanted to have this people pleasing thing where I just needed everyone to like me as a survival instinct, I suppose. Just to never, ever feel like the high school Sed of like being excluded.
But then it got too overwhelming in my adult life where, you know, it was kind of killing me spiritually and misaligning me. And I think that's why even those lyrics coming to me really meant so much…I think because we're vessels, whatever is being told to us from above is translated throughout speech and I think that was just a clear cut example of that. Like, “hey, man, you, wena mister, you don't have a boundary. You need to learn what this means. So sing it, even if you don't really know what it means at the time. And then keep singing it until you actually think about what that means and actually actualise it and actually live through it.” So now I find myself more like, “fuck you,” you know, like, on some serious shit to me.
I will be remiss if I subject this message to some cardinal internet fantasy, whatever thing. Like, I'd rather you tell me, you're wrong, you don't know what you’re talking about. You're gonna fail— Do you know how many people told me I'm going to fail in life? You're never going to break me because you're telling me that if I don't do it this way, I'm gonna fail. My own mom and fucking grandma were telling me I'm gonna fail and never make it. So it's like, bro, trust me, I proved them wrong, I proved my teachers wrong, and I'm gonna prove your bitch ass that came out of nowhere wrong.
Lerato: Exactly.
Sedi: So, yeah, UNGANGBIZI is really my favourite song.
Lerato: Okay, amazing. I think this will be the last question. Oh, what do you guys think is the best way to listen to this album?
Kayleb: That’s a nice one.
Sedi: That’s a good one.
Mike: Ooh, I think good headphones, man.
Sedi: Look, right? Okay, I'll try my best to condense it into a more inclusive point. If you smoke weed—
Mike: That too, that too.
Sedi: If you smoke weed, smoke that shit. And then listen from track one to track eight. No skips, nothing. And listen to it loud. Like buy new earphones that are louder. Listen to it loud, the volume, in your car all the way. Like burst your speakers and listen to the ferocity of the sound alone. Just that alone. I'm not even gonna ask you to listen to the message. Go from one minute 20 seconds and listen to that thing at full volume.
Kayleb: What song?
Sedi: UNGANGBIZI. Like, listen to UNGANGBIZI from that minute. From that time stamp. LOUD. Even if your parents don't like loud stuff, just do it anyway. Yeah. It'll be worth you making a noise. Listen to it like that, smoke weed. If you don't smoke weed, listen to it like that, anyway. Also, we didn't design this album in a sense to be interwoven, like that. You [don’t] have to listen to it in order. Like, whatever you feel that day, pick a song and play that over and over and over again. Yeah.. And also make sure that you're also just listening to everything. Because there's so much from this album that you can pick out; textures, notes that either Kayleb or Sile or Sihle are playing, the way Biko just has his cymbal work down. Listen to all of that, bro. Mr. Lucas mixed that thing to the point where damn near everything you can hear. Every crevice on it, like, peek into that. And, yeah, if you follow me on Instagram, tell me what your favourite song is after you've listened to it.
Lerato: Okay, Kayleb? Mike? Anything to add?
Mike: Yeah, I think you said everything. I have a very simplistic way of looking into it. Yeah, like, headphones. But yeah, what [Sedi] said really, really, yeah. Especially when you're alone and you've listened to that.
Sedi: Yeah, listen to it mostly alone…Don't listen to it at a party or at a braai. Because then you're not gonna really get it.
Kayleb: Mxa mize this guy, bra. Put it on at your braai.
Sedi: I mean, no, if you wanna hear it, listen to it at your braai. I'm saying if you want to listen to me. If you want to listen to the album.
Lerato: Okay, maybe not first listen at a braai.
Everyone: Jah.
Kayleb: But, you know, just in closing at least for myself, I just want to say that, man, if you’re someone out there who fucks with this shit and you think this shit is dope and you wish that you could also do this, you fucking can. Like, this is not some god level stuff. This is all within the realms of humanity. This is all within the realms of very attainable things every individual can do. Really. It's like anyone can do this. Anyone, everyone can do this. And it doesn't have to manifest in the form of music. But anything that you love, brodie, believe in yourself beyond the social boundaries of what's been said, what your parents told you, what your teachers told you, what the world told you, don't listen to that, bra.
Listen to your heart. When it tells you, “man, I love this thing. I wish I could go outside and just find a new plant,” then you spend the rest of your life looking for a new plant, dude. Like, that's the only way you're going to get there. So, believe in your visions as a person. Make sure they’re as pure as they can be, but from there, there's nothing more to say except “go,” dude. Like, if you think this band is amazing and it makes you want to start your own band, my question to you is why haven't you already hit people up to start your band? Like, do it now, today…Yeah.
Lerato: Okay, thank you, guys.
Sedi and Kayleb: Thank you, Lerato (the pair start singing lyrics from track 1 of LERATO LA RONA* titled LERATO)
